“The Great(ly Speculated Apparently Disputed) Apostasy”

What do you get when you dump a whole bunch of noodles into the Red Sea?

“A-Pasta-Sea”!

Ok lame joke, but people have been telling me that they enjoy Bryan's humor more than my dry “fact-filled” approach so I'm trying to compensate. That said, I must admit that trying to be Bryan is a job in and of itself... In trying to adapt his personality, I find myself exhibiting tourette-like symptoms except every outburst has something to do with Banana's or lemonade... But enough about me being him, we've got a very serious-yet-humor-injected post to bring to you tonight: The Great Apostasy!

First off let us term terms, label labels, and define definitions – after which we shall muse together momentarily...

Lds.org definition of apostasy:

When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy. One example is the Great Apostasy, which occurred after the Savior established His Church. After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. Because of this widespread apostasy, the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth. This apostasy lasted until Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 and initiated the restoration of the fullness of the gospel.

That's a pretty outrageous claim! Joseph Smith comes along in the 1800's and tells the world that Christianity died a long time ago, actually about the time the New Testament wraps up. This of course came as a surprise to “Christians” everywhere! Where did Smith get this information? If it was true surely there would be compelling evidence that an investigator could look at to gain a sure knowledge of it's truthfulness.... Or maybe not.

In the Ensign article “Early Signs of the Apostasy” Kent P Jackson seems fairly certain that all one needs to do is read the New Testament to become convinced of the apparent apostate condition of the church by it's conclusion. Jackson refers to 2 Thes 2:3 when he says “Paul taught that the day of Christ's coming would not take place until the 'falling away' and the revelation of the 'man of sin'” He goes on to say that once the apostles died, that the “man of sin” or Satan took Christ's place as “head over the church” Basically re-affirming 1 Ne 13:5-6 5 “And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.”

Jackson goes even further in his article by saying that apostasy is clearly demonstrated in the New Testament simply because the doctrinal and behavioral problems became increasingly difficult to quell. In conjunction with this assessment, Jackson says that by the time 3 John was written, the heresies were so bad that the apostles could no longer prevent an apostasy from taking place.

The thing to realize here is that there isn’t much evidence for either side of this debate. On one hand we have evidence that shows a precedence for apostolic replacements and/or appointments. On the other hand the Bible doesn’t record every single event that happened during the churches beginning, so we can only assume this practice was continued or quelled.

Contrary to what Jackson would have you believe, the New Testament is packed with instances where the Apostles were admonishing the Churches to refrain from false doctrine and false Christs because they knew that the Church was meant to persevere! They weren't preparing for the church to fall into an apostate state, they were doing their best to ensure the proper doctrine be kept and preserved. Instead of seeing leaders preparing for a complete dying off of their faith, you see leaders warning people to not fall away, Paul instructs all believers to run with patience the race that is set before us!

When the LDS church references the “Falling Away” that must occur before Christ's return, it is not something that is foreign to Christianity. The only difference is in Christianity, the “Falling Away” is the Rapture. The Bible is clear that before Christ returns that the Church will be completely removed from the earth; that the Spirit of God will be taken from the Earth as well. Then the Anti-Christ will set himself up as the head of the One world religion for only 7 years, then the Glorious Return of Christ ushers in a millennium where the Devil is bound, then he comes back up to have his butt kicked and Christians get to spend eternity with their God and Savior!

Christians would largely agree with what is said in Bill McKeever's “Mormonism 101”. In his 6th Chapter McKeever writes the following: “If an apostle was killed or died of natural causes, a godly replacement to carry on the goal of his predecessor would have been picked, much like the system set up today in modern Mormonism. However, if the primitive church did not have this system in place, then the LDS Church leaders have no right to claim they represent the same church as that led by Christ and the biblical apostles.” he goes on to say “If, as the current LDS Church practices today, new apostles should be picked to replace outgoing disciples (through retirement or death) it seems strange that God would have allowed the leaders of His church in Palestine to be so ignorant as to stop replacing martyred apostles. Furthermore, Mormons are often told that God will never allow the leaders of the LDS church to guide their church into error. This is a teaching that is hammered home on a continual basis. If this is true of the modern Mormon Church, it must have also been true in the apostolic church. If the early church had a prophet like the modern LDS prophet guiding it, how could it ever fall into a state of apostasy? It would make sense that each successor would also be prohibited from allowing the church to fall into such a state,”

Mormonism holds that their current system is identical to that of the primitive apostolic church. If this were the case, McKeever’s points are to be taken very seriously. Mormons would say that the reason the primitive church fell into Apostasy was not due to a failure on the Churches part, but rather a realization of the will of God.

Personally, and this is just my own opinion, but I believe there is more evidence of an Apostasy in the early days of Mormonism that there is for the primitive church. After Joseph Smith was murdered in 1844, there were multiple people who claimed divine appointment to succeed him as prophet. The RLDS church claims to be the true church as Joseph Smiths own son was the prophet that continued that sect. For more information on that look up "Succession Crisis of 1844".

The Apostasy is a foundational doctrine of the LDS faith and central to it’s entire existence. In the same way, lack of apostasy is central to Christian theology. My recommendations would be to study both sides and see if you can find out for yourself what really happened. Let’s leave this post with a quote from the “History of the Church” - “Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

The Fall, The Winter, And The Other One.

Help! I've fallen and I can't get up! jk I can. But you can help anyways.

The epicness of all that is Christianity and all that is Mormonism clash in a brilliant explosion of direct contrast in one area in particular. We still have no idea what area that is, so we're going to look at the area of the fall of man and the garden stuff. (Which is only slightly less EXPLOSIVE).

Let's get started eh? Eh.

What us Mormon's believe:

Adam and Eve were given two commandments, do not partake of the fruit (Gen 2:16-17), and to multiply and replenish the earth (Gen 1:28). The only commandment that applied to them was not to partake of the fruit. They could have stayed in the garden forever and ever and ever. The other commandment didn't apply to them because they were in a state of innocence, and they could not understand how to procreate.

To carry out Gods plan of happiness, Adam and Eve had to fall from their innocence. Even though they were in a fallen state, the fall was a blessing in disguise.

"Properly understood, it becomes apparent that the fall of Adam is one of the greatest blessings ever given of God to mankind. It is the way and the means whereby the spirit children of the Father go forth from their celestial home to gain mortal and then immortal bodies. And it provides the way for the experiences, tests, and trials that prepare the faithful for eternal life." - Bruce McConkie

By becoming mortals they could now feel joy and unhappiness. All of us could "have a body and come to earth to gain experience in choosing between good and evil" (Preparing for Exaltation).

The whole point of mortal life, is to get a body and to learn how to become like God. The Fall was a part of God's plan, without it we could never be happy. "And it must needs be that the devil should tempt children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet" (Doctrine and Covenants 29:39)

"Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy". (11 Nephi 2:25)

What them Christian's believe:

The state of grace and perfection that Adam and Eve were in, would have been a perfect place to have perfect children, perfectly. The garden of Eden was a perfect place to multiply and replenish the earth with their perfectly perfect children.

According to the Bible, the Fall was nothing but a tragedy because sin had entered the world (Romans 5:14, 1 Cor 15:22) . The Bible teaches that sin is never necessary or a good thing (Except for Ex 16:1 and 17:1). Gods perfect plan didn't necessitate the fall, but because of Santa everybody was in a doomed state.

Genesis 3:16, "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." It says multiply, which sounds like Eve was able to bear children before the Fall.

Now on two points of contrast and that explosive stuff I mentioned earlier...

Where us agree

Both understand it was necessary for God to create a place where sin was available, a choice. Otherwise there would have been no free will... every option would be the right one, and everyone would love God because there was no other choice.

Also, both agree that there were no children born before the partaking of the forbidden fruit, both sides speculate as to how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden, but both understand that no Children could have existed prior to the fall seeing as they wouldn't have been affected by the curses or had the knowledge of good and evil.

Finally, both agree that the forbidden fruit was not an apple, so be not afraid of apples... whole bunches of apples...

Where them differ

Mormons believe that Adam transgressed when he ate the forbidden fruit, but did not sin. "This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin in the strict sense, for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph F. Smith, p. 115) "The fall of man came as a blessing in disguise,... I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin.... It is not always a sin to transgress the law.." (Joseph F. Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, pp. 114)

However Christians disagree based on the Biblical definition of sin: 1 John 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." Based on this as well as Rom 5:14 and 1 Cor 15:22

Mormons believe that Adam and Eve couldn't procreate in their state of innocence, while Christians would argue that procreation would not have harmed that innocence, in the same way as having marital intercourse is not only innocent, but commanded by a Holy God.

Conclusionary Paragraphical Summarizationable

So there you have it. The exposivity is mind numbing. And so are OtterPops. Feel free to ask tons of question and bookmark us and tell all your friends to follow us and pay us money? No pressure either way... :D

-Bryan

Polygamy

Mormon Polygamous Family pre 1890.

One of the most identifiable traits of Mormonism is polygamy. It’s a hot topic in today’s culture and the history of the LDS church is full of it. From it’s founder to this very day, Mormons have embraced Polygamy as a vital part of ones progression to exaltation. While it’s true that the LDS church officially banned the practice in 1890 through a manifesto written by then prophet Wilford Woodruff, polygamy is still very much a part of every Mormon’s life.



Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, had at least 20 wives. Some say even up to 33. But here is a list provided by mrm.org

1. Louisa Beaman Apr 5, 1841
2. Zina Diantha Huntington Oct 27, 1841
3. Prescendia Lathrop Huntington Dec 11, 1841
4. Desdemona W. Fullmer 1842
5. Mary Elizabeth Rollins (Lightner) Jan 17, 1842
6. Patty Bartlett (Sessions) Mar 9, 1842
7. Marinda Nancy Johnson (Hyde) Apr 1842
8. Eliza Roxcy Snow Jun 29, 1842
9. Sarah Ann Whitney Jul 27, 1842
10. Martha McBride (Knight) Aug [3] 1842
11. Almera Woodard Johnson Apr 1843
12. Ruth D. Vose (Sayers) Feb 1843
13. Eliza Partridge Mar 8, 1843
14. Helen Mar Kimball May 1843
15. Lucy Walker May 1, 1843
16. Emily Partridge May 11, 1843
17. Sarah Lawrence May 11, 1843
18. Rhoda Richards Jun 12, 1843
19. Melissa Lott Sep 20, 1843
20. Fanny Young (Murray) Nov 2, 1843

So why Polygamy? Well on July 12, 1843 Joseph Smith gave D&C 132:58–66, (Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth) as a revelation from God. The section itself states that this revelation had been known since 1831.

Brigham Young, LDS’s 2nd prophet said the following: “Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned; and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given, and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.”

But since 1890, polygamy has been banned by the church, any member who is caught practicing the plurality of wives is excommunicated.

However, we’ve all heard about Mormons who still practice polygamy today, who are they? They are from any number of splinter groups primarily from the FLDS, or Fundamental Latter Day Saints. These are the people who were raided in Texas and FLDS prophet Warren Jeffs was taken to prison. The FLDS believe that the LDS Church gave in to political pressure and that the 1890 manifesto was not of God, but rather in fear of being destroyed by the US Government. The manifesto did come at an incredibly convenient time, seeing as the United States would not allow Utah statehood until the issue of polygamy had been taken care of. The LDS believe that the manifesto is of God and that practicing polygamy today is against the law of God. LDS think the FLDS is apostate, and vice versa.

Also interesting to note would be Wilford Woodruff view on Polygamy before he wrote the 1890 manifesto: "If we were to do away with polygamy, it would only be one feather in the bird, one ordinance in the Church and kingdom. Do away with that, then we must do away with prophets and Apostles, with revelation and the gifts and graces of the Gospel, and finally give up our religion altogether and turn sectarians and do as the world does, then all would be right. We just can't do that, for God has commanded us to build up His kingdom and to bear our testimony to the nations of the earth, and we are going to do it, come life or come death. He has told us to do thus, and we shall obey Him in days to come as we have in days past" (JOD 13:165 - p.166).

Even though faithful LDS agree that polygamy shouldn’t be practiced during this lifetime, they still believe it is an essential part of their personal progression. In the case where a man loses his wife while on earth, if he is sealed to another woman they will both be his wives in the next estate. If a Mormon does not have the opportunity to partake of plural marriage while alive, they believe they will be given the opportunity after death.

LDS claim that polygamy has always been a part of God’s plan and use the Old Testament patriarchs as their example. While it is true that our forefathers did practice polygamy, there is nothing in the Bible that shows God doing anything more than allowing it. God never encouraged plural wives or concubines, and the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon are actually monogamous in nature! In the Book of Mormon Jacob 2:27: says "Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none."

The issue I have with this is that if God really instituted the practice of Polygamy, I wouldn’t let the United States bully me into disobeying God’s law. Although faithful LDS will hold that God really did suspend the practice, I think they timing was too convenient for the church. This is only personal opinion though and open to individual decisions.

The Mormon people are more than just polygamy, it is sad that most people stop at polygamy and write them off. To me polygamy doesn’t seem like the worst thing the LDS church believes in, but that’s because I believe the LDS isn’t the true church. Everyone can’t learn everything about everything, there just isn’t enough time. But since you’re reading this, you should know that polygamy is just a small part of the LDS, not it’s defining doctrine.

Heaven? Heavens?

Crackling noise as radio transmission begins with a man in a monotone voice

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy. Arthur Dent a man whose planet has just been blown up.... Just kidding.

This next post will be focusing on Heaven!

Starting off we will be describing what the Mormon's believe about heaven, and what the Christians believe about heaven.

Mormons: We believe that there are three separate kingdoms in heaven, the Celestial the Terrestrial and the Telestial.

The highest degree of glory is the Celestial. This is the kingdom where God and Christ live. It is also the kingdom where families can live with their earthly families and produce spirit children. In this kingdom you will receive a fullness of happiness, and receive exaltation (becoming a God) To enter into this kingdom you will need to have faith in Christ, be baptized and do all the necessary ordinances in the temple. Children who die before the age of accountability (usually 8) will also be in this kingdom.

The next highest is the Terrestrial. All of the beings from the Celestial kingdom (including Christ and God) will be able to visit this kingdom. The people who will be in this kingdom would have gotten the gospel on earth, rejected it, and then accepted it again after death. This is a place for Mormon's and Non-Mormons who didn't obey the commandments as best they could.

The lowest kingdom, Telestial, is still a heaven, but it is not as grand as the Terrestrial and Celestial. It will still be an awesome place. Doctrine & Covenants 76:89, “the glory of the Telestial… surpasses all understanding.” Only the Holy Ghost is able to go into that kingdom, God and Christ will not be there. The people in this kingdom will be the ones who reject the gospel and all the ordinances, in this life and in the life after death. Because they did not accept Christ, they would have to suffer for their own sins before they are resurrected to this kingdom.

Outer Darkness: This is where Satan/Santa is. Everybody who did not agree with God's plan, and instead followed Satan, is here. Only a few of us will go to outer darkness. Because you would have to deny the Holy Ghost. In order to do this a person must first gain a sure knowledge of the truthfulness of the gospel, and then deny it. It's like someone saying that there is no sun at noon on a clear day.

A biblical scripture that supports this is found in 2 Corinthians 12:2. " I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven"
Christians believe that Paul is referring to an atmospheric heaven, or sky, rather than the dwelling place of God.

Christianity: There is not a solid agreement on what Heaven is, but the more popular one is that Heaven will eventually be on this earth.

After Christians die they go to an intermediary place called Paradise, (Luke 23:43) it is here Christians wait until Jesus makes His second appearance. Once the whole story plays out, a new Earth will be created, it will be here where people will reign with God forever in their new glorified bodies. (Matt 25:34)

Christians believe in one heaven, but that people will receive different amounts of Glory (rewards) based on their works during their lifetime. (1 Cor 3:8) Heaven, to Christians, is “In the presence of God”.

Who gets in? Only those who are righteous may enter heaven. (Gal 5:21, Eph 5:5, Rev 22:15) Who is righteous? No one. (Rom 3:10) The only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ. (John 14:6) Christians are saved by grace though faith in Jesus Christ. So all who are saved will eventually reign with God for eternity on the New Earth. (Matt 25:34) Serving Him forever. (Rev 22:3)

Alrighty. As you can probably tell, both of these beliefs are different. Mormons believe that you will be in a kingdom according to your faith and works, and with people like you around you. Christians believe that there is one heaven and everybody who is saved will go there. If you were more faithful than others, you would receive more rewards then they would.

Christian Trinity Vs. Mormon Godhead

When comparing the Trinity against the Godhead, more similarities emerged than I had originally anticipated. I must also admit that I was particularly sketchy on the concept of Trinity myself. Being a math person, I couldn't come to terms with 1+1+1=1. It just wouldn't add up in my mind. Often times when I would approach the topic in conversation with a fellow Christian, the response would go along the lines of “God's ways are higher” and “Who are we to comprehend God”. While I do accept that there will be things I may never understand, I don't believe that is a free ticket to just stop trying. Doesn't the Bible say something about people who are willingly ignorant? Hmmm.

So first off, let's define terms.

Christian Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.

Mormon Godhead: The Church's first article of faith states, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." These three beings make up the Godhead. They preside over this world and all other creations of our Father in Heaven.

That looks pretty much Identical. So how are they different? I'm glad you asked!

The difference lies in the defining of the actual members. You see, in Orthodox Christianity, we believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be co-equal, as well as co-eternal. Christians believe that there was never a time where there didn't exist all three persons of the Godhead. Neither do they believe that one created the other. This is the fundamental difference between the Trinity and the Godhead. Not so much in it's structure, but in it's members.

In Mormonism, you are taught that God was not always God. God the Father was actually just a regular man on a planet much like our own. After this man followed all of the commands and ordinances required of him by his God, he was able to become “exalted” into who we now know as Father God, or as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints refers to as “Heavenly Father”. Prior to creating Earth, Heavenly Father begat children with Heavenly Mother, the first child being Jesus. Heavenly Father also born the Holy Spirit, Lucifer, and everyone whose ever lived, is living, or ever will live.

Already you can see where the major differences are. Christianity claims that the trinity has always existed, while Mormonism holds that the Father achieved exaltation and that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are spirit children of Him. Both can't be right, but now that we know how they're different, we need to figure out which one is right, if one is right.

So why do Mormons believe that the Son and Holy Spirit were created? Why do they believe there was a time where Father was not Father? This seems to go against the Bible! You're completely right, however The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints claims that the Bible is only reliable as long as it's properly translated. They also ascertain that there are many “plain and precious things taken away from the book” book meaning Bible. The LDS church believes that God has proved them with additional revelations through their founding prophet Joseph Smith, in the forms of the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine & Covenants, along with a living prophet who today is President Thomas S. Monson.

In a later blog we go into more detail on just how different the Mormon and Christian concepts of God are. On the surface, they can appear quite similar, only when you dig deeper can you see just how polarizing the views are. In Matthew 24:24 we read "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible." The question is, which Christ is the true Christ? Is it the traditional Christ of Orthodox Christianity, handed down through time within the pages of the Bible? Or was the Original Christ lost along the way, having now been restored by God through Joseph Smith?

We shall see...

Are You Ready To Rumble?

Hello! My name is Bryan also known as Amulon. If you know who Amulon (he was an evil guy in the Book of Mormon) is, you are probably asking "Why does he want to represent a wicked priest?" I picked Amulon because 1. If there were any Mormon's playing the same time I was, they would recognize me as one of them. 2. I thought it was an awesome name.

I was born into the Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints. I've been a member all my life. Like most members who are born in the church, I basically went to church because my parents would bribe me with lemonade (not really). Probably around ten years old I started to enjoy going to church, and probably around twelve I went to church on my own accord (and yet, I still received lemonade).

I've never done a deep study on any religion, even the religion I was currently in. I was just learning the basics in church. My first outside-of-church-studying-actually-learning-more-than-the-basics for the gospel started when I finished the Book of Mormon, and received a testimony that it was a true book of God. Once I finished that, I started to read more of the Standard Works. Not until I met this weirdo named Paul, did I start doing a deep study of my religion. Now, because of him, I know so much more about my religion and the Christian religion (I believe that Mormon are Christians. Because we believe in Christ. But Paul has a different definition of Christian, but I generally use his definition. So when I say Christian, I am referring to the church Paul is in.)

The first conversations we ever had were usually about gaming, and other non-important stuff. Now our conversations are filled with so much religious cake, that my brain hurts just thinking about that much sugar. Paul and I grown so much in our religions, and our friendship has never been stronger. He has changed my life and has made me a better person. I hope that we will both find the truth, and by making this blog, helping you find the truth as well.

**Disclaimer**

Here are some clarifications as to the purpose and scope of this blog:

The purpose of this site is to use the experience gained through our investigation to give additional insight to others. Through reading the material presented we hope you will gain a new perspective into our world. We pray that through our conversations you might be aided in your own search for truth.

We confess that not all Christians agree on every area of doctrine. In the same way, Mormons are not cookie-cutter-carbon-copies of one another. In light of this, please understand that Paul and Bryan are not attempting to speak for everyone else of their faith, but instead, are speaking out of their own understanding of their personal beliefs.

You should not trust anything on this site as being infallible, but instead, use critical analysis and research the topics discussed here for yourselves. We will do our best to provide source material, but seeing as many of these conversations have been collected from past discussions, errors may come up. Please report any false information that is presented and we will do our best to correct it.

In everything said and done on this blog, both Paul and Bryan reserve the right to be wrong. The entire goal of these investigations is that, someday, one or both of them will come to the realization that they have believed in a false faith, leading them to the "One Truth". While the beliefs shared on this site hold true for the person at the time they wrote it, beliefs can change as new information is presented.

We’re excited to have you join us in this adventure and pray that the Truth will be found, and through it, we will be set free. Amen!