I just wanted to take this week's blog post to reflect on where I'm currently at in this journey.
I am not a Mormon. I drink Tea and Coffee. And Lemonade.
Bryan and I had an incredible candid conversation not too long ago. We were talking about the possible outcomes of this experiment. We both came to the same startling conclusion that we would both kind of like to be wrong. Not that we do think we're wrong or that we would like the other faith to be true... It's just that we both think it would be incredible to be that person who comes out of a cult, or false religion. To be a person who overcame the odds and were able to see that what they believed in was false... Even when we thought it was so right!
I thought it was amazing that both of us are ready and willing to admit we're wrong. It's not like we're believing what we believe just because we want to be right, we want TRUTH! Regardless of the cost! Regardless of what comes from this experiment, I am extremely content with the place that both Bryan and I arrived at. There is still more time for this to play out even more and I am looking forward to seeing exactly what that entails. But for the time being, I am a happy man. My best friend and I are pursuing truth through a world full of falsities coming from friend and foe alike.
Three reasons why I currently can't accept Mormonism as being true.
No reasonable evidence: I have no reason to believe that the BOM is more than a fictional book conceived by a very imaginative mind in that of Joseph Smith. I don't think I'm setting my standard for truth extremely high, I just expect that if the BOM is based on real events that actually happened, that archeology would be able to verify it to some degree. I don't think the story of the Prodigal Son is real just because the story is in the Bible... I understand that Jesus was relating a fictional story. The BOM could be a fictional story, but then why should I think the BOM is anything more than just that? What authority does the BOM have over me and my life?
Moroni Failed The Test: At least so far... I prayed to know if the BOM wasn't true back in September, All that's happened in my relation to Mormonism is that I think it's even more unlikely that the LDS faith is true. Both Bryan and I agreed ahead of time that I met each of the three Moroni qualifications.
Mormon Eternal Life is Unattainable: I can't do "all I can do". I can't meet the criteria to gain eternal life in Mormonism... I've tried it in Christianity and I find myself continually failing over and over again... I need the free gift of grace and the help of God to overcome my evil desires. I know that if I were to prescribe to a works based theology I would be completely ruined.
Like I said earlier, I don't know where the future will bring me, it's completely "possible" that I will end up being a Mormon. But as I continue to test my own faith and burn out the stubble that never really belonged there in the first place. I am growing more and more confident that Orthodox Christianity is the carrier of the One Truth. That Orthodox Christianity is the conduit chosen by The Way, The Truth, and The Life: Jesus Christ.
God Bless you all!
-Paul O
Interesting post, Paul. Precise and complete in thought. I, however, would question the foundation of your statement that you 'like to be wrong'. Is it possible that you like the challenge that comes when others question your 'truth' instead of actually like being wrong? When we are sure of what we believe in yet no one challenges that belief, then how strong is our faith in that truth? From what I know of you - you like to be challenged, as I do - at times. But to be wrong in our Christian faith, no, I can't believe that. I am looking forward to the day we walk the streets of gold together.
ReplyDelete:)
I guess "like to be wrong" isn't the right way to say it Debbie... How about this: "
ReplyDeleteIf I am wrong on a particular issue, I thoroughly enjoy being made aware of my faulty view."
That coupled with something of a "jealousy" for people who are unwittingly following or are adherents of a system of thought that is false at it's core. I can tell you that it could have been a pride issue for me if I was to be such a person... But looking at it more closely I can see just how humbling it is to gain just one more tidbit of truth....
God created everything, all wisdom is God-given... To truly understand this would obliterate any chance for pride to rear it's lame-sauce head. ;)
So this isn't really a discussion... just a story i learned surprisingly in my Geology class. haha Thought it would be kiinda like evidence of the BOM? There was a volcano in... agh i can't even remember where... but there was a volcano. And it had the most massive explosion on some other continent. Because of the great explosion there was a lot of ash in the air that was carried over to New England in America including the area of Vermont where Joseph Smiths family was living at the time. The ash blocked out the sun and everything the people were growing started to die. The potatoes in the ground started rotting and the people who were eating these potatoes along with other veggies that stayed in the ground like carrots started getting very very sick with a plague or disease caused by the ash in the air and the rotten food. Because of this Joseph Smiths family needed to move. The best place they could find just happened to be Palmyra, New York. Which was just perfect because thats where the gold plates just happened to be. coincidence? No i don't think so. God has purpose to everything and he knows everything that happens and will happen. Nothing in our lives happen by coincidence. It's true... the volcano was very devasting to many people, but it was needed to bring Joseph Smith to the resting place of the plates and in turn bringing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to the world.
ReplyDeleteThat would be Mount Tambora. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Tambora
ReplyDeleteIt appears that the dates line up and the move to Palmyra is most reasonably attributed to this eruption. However, devastating would be an understatement. There were 11,000 deaths from direct volcanic effects and 49,000 by post-eruption famine and epidemic diseases.
This just got me thinking about how God leads people, imagine if God used a volcanic eruption every time He wanted a person to make a geographic move! Instead of a dream telling Joseph to flee to Egypt (Matt 2:13) God just blew up a volcano that kills 60,000 people...
God is good, the devil is bad and crap happens... While it's true that God can work all things for the good of those who love Him, He could have way more easily given JS Sr. a dream or angelic visitation and have 60,000 less fatalities as a result.
I appreciate the history lesson and I love learning more about the origin of the LDS but you must know that is in no way evidential of the BOM. The only way you could attribute this to the BOM is to begin with a presupposition that the BOM is true, then you can move backwards and speculate as to whether certain events leading up to it were divinely inspired or coincidence.
If you start out with no presupposition, if your true goal is to find out the truth, if the BOM is fictional or not, then you will see that this volcano can in no way be entered as evidence. Evidence would take a form of actual golden plates which can be dated back to the times they were written as well as being decipherable, giving a translation liken to the one Smith gave. Or if the plates are missing, then provide us with eyewitness accounts from non-biased people, people by the thousands or hundreds that they actually existed in the first place. Or if you can't give thousands of unbiased testimony, then how about hundreds of biased? Or maybe 11? Sure give me 11 biased testimonies from LDS that they actually seen and touched the golden plates!
ReplyDeleteBut what we have is quite different, we have the three original witnesses having to "pray" to "see" the "real" plates! One of them has trouble and goes off by himself and later "sees" the plates. This tells me that the plates weren't real. If God gave me a book, I would just go get the book and hand it to other people and let them look through it and feel it, even unbelievers could "handle" this book because it would be real! Instead, evidentially, we see a man with a history of being a con-man leading three men in "prayer" to see something "if" they have enough faith. This puts he men in a place of wanting to create a vision to prove their great faith, even if they really didn't see anything.
Three original "Witnesses":
Martin Harris later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates with "the eyes of faith and not with the natural eyes"
David Whitmer later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates "by the eye of faith" handled by an angel.
Oliver Cowdery: In 1841 the Mormons published a poem which stated "Or Book of Mormon not his word, because denied by Oliver". Seasons and Times, Vol 2, p482
And of the 8 additional witnesses? Extra comments and quotes are scarce from the four Whitmers, three Smiths and one Page, but we do have a quote from John Whitmer: "the plates ‘were shown to me by a supernatural power'"
Evidentially, if an "eyewitness" were to "testify" in court about seeing a man shoot another man with a gun, it would be assumed that this man is not speaking of a heavenly vision in which he saw the murder, but that he was actually in close proximity and saw the murder with his earthly eyes right? Why then do LDS ask me to believe the testimony of a handful of Smith's followers speaking of a vision?
I'm beginning to think the volcano may be more acceptable... evidentially speaking ;)
Sorry for the ramblings :P
But if you heard accounts of people who saw the plates, but were not biased because they never joined the LDS church, would that really help you believe the plates were real and whats in them are true or would that make you think that if those people didn't join the church that means the book wasn't true and therefore you shouldn't believe they're real either... Couldn't that go both ways? I feel like you try to find ways to prove why the BOM is false which is opposite of trying to find the truth. You have to look for truth to find it. Or you're really rejecting it. Maybe not outwardly rejecting it, but in your heart you are. I'm sorry i'm really not trying to be snippy.
ReplyDelete@Anon If you're who I think you are then I already know you're the opposite of snippy ;)
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly what we're shooting for here, honest discussion, everything out on the table!
I am looking for truth, regardless of what that is in relation to the BOM. The BOM can be true or it can be false. You're statement that 'my looking for ways to prove the BOM is false' is actually the opposite of the truth shows that you yourself are biased. You are claiming to know the "truth" concerning the BOM and that that truth is that it's true.
Let's look at your hypothetical: If people testify of seeing the plates and never joined the church, that would be amazingly powerful evidence! That shows that they weren't just trying to please the leader or that the weren't related to one of three men ;) It would be the same as Josephus writing about Jesus Christ, he wasn't Christian, but he wrote of Jesus as a historical person, not a made up religion! This has been monumental in showing atheists that Christ really did exist, and once they learn that, they have to decide if he was crazy, a con-man, or God.
I honestly believe I am open to the truth in whatever form I find it in. I have to believe that the truth will be reasonable in nature, otherwise any religion could be true. Good Mormons and Good Christians should know that there can only be one truth. They should also know that they're in a battle for the title in this race.
I really enjoy your input Anon, please don't be afraid to speak your mind, we're friends right? :D
haha yes we are friends. :) bryan says you didn't know who i was, but i knew you did! haha well... kay yeah i'm biased. i'm not like bryan in that he says that he looks for the pure truth and if someone can show him that the truth is not the LDS church then by all means he will switch to whats right. ha so i'm technically not supposed to comment on here. i don't believe that something else could be the truth. however, i know that most all religions doo have truth in them. all religions teach good morals and principles and teach a lot of truths of Christ and know of all his ministry and everything. i just don't believe that any other ones have aall of the truth in their one religion. soo yeah i'm biased. ha there are accounts of people who have seen the plates and were not part of the church though... i can find the accounts/stories if you would like. :) it just seems to me that if you were to find the absolute truth truth whether thats the lds faith or not you would always say that it could possibly be false and you'd always be "looking" for the truth because youd kinda doubt that it waas true? i don't know though because i don't know your thoughts and how you think. just a question... have you heard of Charles Anthon? You read the D&C too right?
ReplyDelete@Anon You are an incredible person, your honesty is totally refreshing to me, I get the same "feeling" talking to Bryan (Maybe it's the Spirit lol jk).
ReplyDeleteYou're biased, agreed. So am I. So is everyone ever! The main point is not to let your bias get in the way if it's incorrect. You say you can't make the same statement of faith that Bryan does, but I think you can. You see, Bryan saying that he will follow truth wherever it leads is an amazing statement but you have to look at it in context of Bryan himself. Bryan is a Mormon, Bryan believes at the moment that the LDS Church is the one true church and that by following truth 'wherever it leads' that he will be essentially following deeper and deeper into the LDS church. I am the same way except substitute Orthodox Christianity instead of LDS.
You yourself will follow after truth wherever it will lead, I mean think about it: Let's say you find out the LDS church is false, beyond the shadow of a doubt. You now know that the church isn't true, in this, you followed after truth. But you believe (with everything within you) that the LDS church IS true! therefor you can make the same claim as Bryan, only for you, that truth you're following is the truth of the LDS Church. Get it?
You totally belong here, I just wish you'd get a profile so others could follow along with us ;)
I would love to read or watch anything you have for me concerning the BOM or anything you know I'd like to see :)
I just Google searched Anthon and I do remember him, this is from his Wiki: "Charles Anthon is famous among members of the Latter Day Saint movement because of his interactions with Martin Harris concerning a fraction of Joseph Smith's translation of the Golden Plates, later known as the Anthon Transcript. According to Harris, Anthon wrote Harris a letter of authenticity declaring the Golden Plates to be "reformed Egyptian" but then tore it up. Anthon, however, said that he recognized a hoax and never wrote a letter of authenticity."
I have read D&C and am currently re-reading it because I think I may have missed a lot due to extreme boredom experienced when reading D&C ;)
@Anon I forgot to respond to a couple points.
ReplyDeleteI think this task of "looking for truth" will outlast my finite existence in this estate. However I am currently a Christian, I am persuaded that Christianity is true, yet I still reserve the right to be wrong. It is entirely possible that I believe in a system that is not entirely true. Yet there comes a time where you've got to make a decision, based on the knowledge you have at the time. Then continue to learn and relocate yourself as you receive new information once it's been filtered through your own system of verifying truth.
I also agree with you that many religions have aspects of truth. There are a lot of portions of Mormonism that I think the Orthodox Church would be wise to incorporate. Your sense of family values is a personal favorite. Yet I must disagree with you that all religions are good. I personally believe that "religion" has sent more people to hell than all of the sex, drugs and rock & roll combined. I make a clear distinction in my beliefs and that of a dead religion. For example, The church of Satan isn't a good religion. Wicca aren't good, Islam at it's core is bloodthirsty.
Keep following after truth Anon, for God is truth. Seek ye first the kingdom of God! Whenever you learn something contrary to what you believe, research it into the ground: One of two possible outcomes will result. 1) You are forced to accept this new revelation as truth and adapt your theology accordingly. Or 2) Your current theology will be tremendously strengthened by learning how your beliefs stood up under fire.
God bless you.
I love discussions. So i really really like what you reply back with. I've just never really been the one in the discussion. ha I always just watch. So I don't come up with the best points, I just kinda talk about what I believe I guess. And yes I understand now about following the truth wherever it leads. If i weere to find out the LDS church is wrong for sure, I wouldn't just believe in it anyways just because... that would be ridiculous. and pointless. I'd follow where I did find the truth at. But yes I believe the truth is in my church. And I didn't even know there were such churches as that. I have heard about the Islam church though. In my honors Ethics class actually. freak you'd blow everyone outa the water in that class. haha it would be awesome. But even though they are all about like... killing everyone not in their religion... they do it cuz they think it's right ya know? They don’t do it because they think it’s wrong. But anyways, that’s completely besides the point. Haha I don’t actually have any points to really give you. Haha I just wanted to respond :P but theres a story I’m thinking of about people seeing the plates… but I’m not sure where exactly that book is at in my house. Ha I will have to look for it.:)
ReplyDeleteLadies and mentlegen, Anon is in reality Michelle!
ReplyDelete@Michelle
Yay, you've finally committed ;) You also have no idea how big I'm smiling right now after hearing you say "I'd follow where I did find the truth at." Even though you believe your church to be true, I believe my church to be true and those Muslims think we're both wrong... If we could all agree to seek truth first, I believe we'd be on a safe road. Albeit, each one understands that there can be only one truth, so we understand the gravity of our being wrong as well... This is most likely the most important thing we could be thinking about/discussing/blogging.
People live their lives by what they believe to be true, not that they make the right decisions concerning the truth that they know, but they know if those decisions were right/wrong depending on what truth they believe in.
Women that have abortions probably don't believe the baby is actually a baby, if they did they wouldn't feel right about killing him/her. But most of those women have bought into the lie that the baby isn't a person, that it's just skin and tissue... This is just once scenario in which knowing truth has direct implications on our lives as well as in the lives of others. You're right in saying Muslims want to kill infidels, they do! If they hold to what the Koran teaches, if they tell you they don't believe that, then they aren't the Muslim that they ought to be... Tell them they should get in or get out, can't be riding the fence on that one ;)
You and I are allies Michelle, not in the sense of what religion we're in, in that sense we're enemies... but we are allies in the search for truth, so is Bryan! It's my dream that we can get more people interested in truth over "Finding what religion works best for them" You know what I mean, like people can shop for what beliefs they think fits their personality best? That type of thinking blows my mind! But it's the majority view on religion, faith, and God. People think that if they believe in Santa Claus that he is real to them or something crazy like that... That is foreign to me, truth can't be subjective to human feelings, truth is independent of how we feel or believe. Joseph Smith with was a true prophet regardless of my feelings on the subject, or he was a false prophet, regardless of your feelings on the matter. It's OK for us to have feelings about things, but the feelings need to make way for truth.
I would love to hear the story you refer to, please let me know when you find it. :)
I feel good nanananana!