(That's a very beautiful picture, don't you think?)
Hello all! And welcome to another exciting episode of "Where's my pants!?" This has nothing to do with the blog, and there is no way that i can tie it in.
As you all know I am going to leave on a mission soon. Not a mission that is impossible, but just a lds mission. You (not you specifically) do something called 'mission papers'. After you (not you specifically) turn them in you (not you specifically) get your (not your specifically?) call in a couple weeks. Then you (not you specifically) leave after a couple of months! Its exciting! So yeah. I am almost done with my papers. So only a few months left of blogging/partying/home-ing/blogging. Don't cry. Please. Don't. So fasten your seat belts, because you are entering a very, veeeeery non-wild ride.
As you probably guessed, this weeks post is about the Plan of Happiness/Salvation. I have already put alot of words on this post. So basically, i am going to do the basics of each major part in the plan.
Premortal Life- Soooo, we were all there. Even Obama (sorry). I don't know exactly what we did up there... but i betcha it involved lemonade. One warm sunny day, God told us there would be a meeting. So we all gathered around in the conference room while God presented his plan. The plan i am sharing, even though i bet it was in more depth. God explained that he needed somebody to die for all of mankind. To pay for their sins. Jesus said that He would do it. Lucifer (santa) said he would take away our agency, so all mankind may be 'saved'. He also wanted God to give him all of his power and glory. God chose Jesus (of course), and because of that, santa was mad so he left God's presence along with 1/3 of the hosts of heaven.
Veil- When its our time to come to party-planet, we pass though a veil. Which makes us forget our pre-life, so it won't effect our earthly decisions.
Mortal Life- Right now! We are on earth to gain a body, become like our Heavenly Father, learn, grow and drink lemonade.
Death- Your (not your specifically?) spirit leaves your body after that guy pulls the trigger.
Spirit World- Everybody goes here after they die. You can still become like our Heavenly Father, learn, grow and drink lemonade up here. People who did not have the chance to hear/accept the gospel, will be taught here. There will be tons of missionary work to teach everybody about the gospel.
Judgment-Before this part you get resurrected. Then, you are judged! You will be judged on your works and desires, and will receive mercy if you used Christs Atonement to repent.
Finally, KINGDOM PLACEMENT!!!!!!!!!!- http://amormonandachristian.blogspot.com/2010/01/heaven-heavens.html (i've already done a post on that. So read up on it instead of hanging out with your friends)
Another Exemplary post Mr. Bryan!
ReplyDeleteI've got some specific questions relating to the post, but the first one I'd like to pose to you is this: As a missionary, why should anyone believe you about any of this? What authority will you cite to let people know that what you're speaking is the truth and make them take your claims seriously?
Man... i am really glad Bryan does not speak for the church. False doctrine and sacrilege all over in that blog.
ReplyDeleteCould you be so kind as to point out where so we can fix it? Thanks!
ReplyDeleteYes i would also love to find out why am i wrong, especially when i was looking on lds.org to make sure i was saying it right. If you are going to act like a punk on the blog, can you atleast point out what we are doing 'wrong'?
ReplyDeleteSo we're not uptight. What's wrong with that? Basically you want to read a textbook? There's nothing wrong with making reading something fun. All the doctrine there is true. Nothing made up. Bryan is the kind of person who will make an amazing missionary because the people will be drawn to his easiness and humor. It will make people want to talk to him about the gospel instead of turning them away with cold hard straight forward words. But really... if you disagree with the blog, just don't read it. It's very possible to learn of the gospel in other places. Everyone needs something different and if you don't like the way we discuss and speak of our our faiths and beliefs you can always find a better place for you to learn. Bry, you didn't answer Pauls questions. I wanted to know what you'd say. ha Paul, I feel like I've learned of a lot of places in the scriptures where it speaks of the plan of salvation, but the deeper parts are just buried in the writing and you have to figure out what they're trying to tell you.
ReplyDeleteHey Michelle! :) So are you trying to answer my question of "by what authority" would you claim to be able to tell strangers in the mission field about the LDS "Plan Of Salvation"?
ReplyDeleteIf so it seems you are citing your official doctrine as an authority by which you can teach these things. In that case, wouldn't it be a good idea to find out where these official doctrines came from? If a Mormon missionary came to my house and began to tell me about the "Plan Of Salvation" I would ask him where he gets this information... Most likely he would do as you did and begin to tell me about the BOM, the D&C, and the PoGP. At this point I would ask why I should believe that these books speak the truth... That if there were any points of contention between the LDS standard works and the Bible, why should I trust the LDS instead of the Bible?
If I found out that the BOM was discovered by a boy with a shady history, and translated without even being near the original plates, and witnessed by only eleven or so people (many of whom turned from the faith later) I would ask again, by what authority does the BOM, D&C, or PoGP hold over me?
I think it's safe to say that believing in the truthfulness of the LDS standard works based on evidence is unreasonable. This is probably where the missionary would resort to his personal testimony of the truthfulness of these things. But how am I supposed to trust the missionary when members of the FLDS and RLDS get this same feeling that confirms their respective churches and denounces the others? It would seem that citing ones personal experience in no way helps a seeker to verify the truthfulness of a world-view.
Is this a fair assessment? I am still curious as to how you'd handle this Bryan! ;)
I've been looking for specific scriptures about the plan of salvation. Here are some so far:
ReplyDeleteCreation:
--Moses 2
--Abraham 2
--"And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them" (Moses 2:27)
The Fall:
--"And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin" (2 Nephi 2:22-23.)
Body!:
--"For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Moses 1:39)
--Moses 2:27 again
Being tested:
--"And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them," (Abraham 3:24-25)
Death:
--http://orionwell.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/grim-reaper.jpg
After Death:
"There is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works" (Alma 40:12-13,21.)
Resurrected:
--"As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Corinthians 15:22.)
Judgment:
-"Therefore remember, O man, for all thy doings thou shalt be brought into judgment. Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever," (1 Nephi 10:20-21.)
Three Kingdoms:
Celestial
--[Joseph Smith] "beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven" (D&C 137:10)
--"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
"Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
"For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts" (D&C 137:7-9.)
Terrestrial
--"These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God" (D&C 76:79.)
Telestial
--"who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.
"These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.
"These are they who are thrust down to hell.
"These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.
"These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit" (D&C 76:82-86.)
Thats all i gots so far
I would agree that Bryan's description of "The Plan Of Happiness" is right on the money according to LDS theology. I think it's noteworthy that the person who took issue with your descriptions choose to remain anonymous. They obviously aren't Australian.
ReplyDeleteTroll.
ReplyDeleteno no i don't just mean the bom and such. i was actually thinking the bible. however... i agree that a missionary should kinda try to stay away from teaching principals from the bom. just at the first. obviously they will have to at some point because it's such a major part of the LDS faith, but you can't prove anything by it to someone who has never heard of it/read it/believes it... if you read accounts of people in joseph smiths day who apostatized later after seeing the plates they all say that the bom is a true book of god. They all left the church because they were offended or thought Joseph Smith wasn't progressing or had problems with what happened to the churchs leadership after Joseph was martyred. One man left the church because his name was spelled wrong for example.
ReplyDelete"One Sunday, Brother James H. Moyle shared with us a singular experience. As a young man he went to the University of Michigan to study law. As he was finishing his studies, his father told him that David Whitmer, one of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, was still alive. The father suggested to his son that he stop on his way back to Salt Lake City to visit with David Whitmer face-to-face. Brother Moyle’s purpose was to ask him about his testimony concerning the golden plates and the Book of Mormon.
During that visit, Brother Moyle said to David Whitmer: “Sir, you are an old man, and I’m a young man. I have been studying about witnesses and testimonies. Please tell me the truth concerning your testimony as one of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon.” David Whitmer then told this young man: “Yes, I held the golden plates in my hands, and they were shown to us by an angel. My testimony concerning the Book of Mormon is true.” David Whitmer was out of the Church, but he never denied his testimony of the angel’s visitation, of handling the golden plates, or of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Hearing with my own ears this remarkable experience directly from Brother Moyle’s lips had a powerful, confirming effect upon my growing testimony. Having heard it, I felt it was binding upon me." -A Growing Testimony; James E. Faust
I would agree that citing the Bible as an authority would be a compelling tactic to use. I believe the Bible to be historically valid, not because of a feeling I get or witness after praying, but because I've inspected it and it holds up under critical examination. But if an LDS missionary were to come to my house and only give me milk, i might not be able to recognize the difference between LDS and regular Orthodox Christianity. I've talked to Bryan about this before and we both feel like this type of approach would be deceptive. To tell you the truth, if I had no knowledge about LDS prior to the missionaries, a basic lesson on milk and even a quick reading of the BOM might not have seemed that big of a deal to me... I might have even prayed the Moroni prayer and accepted any little thing as an answer (Like a fan blowing wind on me... that actually happened when I did pray and I chuckled when I thought of how desperate I was to make anything into this witness I sought).
ReplyDeleteThe strange thing about LDS using the Bible to bring authority into the conversation is, correct me if I'm wrong, but LDS believe the Bible to be compromised. You wouldn't need a person to bring an objection to the Bible's innerancy because you already believe it's not completely true unless translated correctly (Or interpreted by LDS theology).
Whitmer may have held that he did "see" the plates even after he left the church, but I don't think his testimony would be admissable even in a court system of our time:
ReplyDelete1. David Whitmer said in 1887: "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints...'" Address to all believers in Christ, p27, 1887
2. David Whitmer belonged to at least three Mormon splinter groups at different times, but he died still rejecting the LDS Church and its priesthood.
3. Like Martin Harris, David Whitmer later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates "by the eye of faith" handled by an angel.(Palmyra Reflector, March 19, 1831)
4.David Whitmer changed his story about seeing the plates and later told of finding them lying in a field and later still, told Orson Pratt that they were on a table with all sorts of brass plates, gold plates, the Sword of Laban, the ‘Director' and the Urim and Thumim. (Millennial Star, vol. XL, pp. 771-772)
5. During the summer of 1837, while in Kirtland, David Whitmer pledged his new loyalty to a prophetess (as did Martin and Oliver) who used a black seer stone and danced herself into ‘trances.'(Biographical Sketches, Lucy Smith, pp. 211-213)
It was the start of the finish for him. It ended in 1847 in his declaration to Oliver that he (Whitmer) was to be the Prophet of the New Church of Christ and Oliver a counsellor.(Letter to Oliver Cowdery, by David Whitmer, Sept. 8, 1847, printed in the "Ensign of Liberty," 5/1848, p. 93; also see ‘Ensign of Liberty,' 8/1849, pp. 101-104)
6. In the meantime, he was excommunicated and roughly put out. His and Oliver's families were, in fact, driven into the streets and robbed by the Mormons while Whitmer and Cowdery were away trying to arrange a place to flee.(John Whitmer's History of the Church, Modern Microfilm, SLC, p. 22)
7. Cursed by leaders such as Sidney Rigdon, David Whitmer was denounced by the Prophet Joseph Smith as a "dumb beast to ride" and "an ass to bray out cursings instead of blessings." (History of the Church, vol. 3, p 228)
Do you really want people to take the witness of this man and stake their eternal life on it?
Paul, do you know the story of Balaam? The king told him to curse israel, but he wouldn't do it. Then he said to get israel to sin, so God wouldn't bless them anymore. He was a prophet, and yet he made horrible mistakes does that mean anything from the bible is full of crap? No.
ReplyDeletePeople don't join the church because of the witness of David Whitmer, they join it because the spirit witnesses it to them. I really don't care what anybody else believes about the church, and what they do with that belief. I know that i have received a testimony of the book of Mormon, and that is all that matters.
Yes, I know of Balaam, and his donkey :)
ReplyDeleteHe was a prophet, a false prophet because he loved the wages of unrighteousness. (2 Peter 2:15) I don't see how that could be used to say the entire Bible is false.... Or why you would even ask the question, are you saying I made a similar claim?
You said "I really don't care what anybody else believes about the church, and what they do with that belief." I can't really believe this, otherwise you wouldn't, or rather shouldn't be going on a mission trip where what others believe will be your primary concern for two years.
But you are now going to your testimony for a basis of authority. I don't know if this is how you'd go about it in a persons home, going immediately to your testimony, or to give other objective evidences first. That's what I'd like to know.
In the event you did come face to face with a member of the FLDS and he/she told you that you are wrong because his/her testimony said so, what would you say/do? Would you really not care and just leave him/her there or would you try to explain that you can't both be right? Would you cite the manifesto about polygamy being banned and also remind them that they are commanded to follow the prophet above all else? What if their argument is that they follow the prophet second to the witness of the Spirit? In that case, you wouldn't be able to reason with them, they would indeed be unreasonable... Isn't that the same thing you're doing by saying "I know that i have received a testimony of the book of Mormon, and that is all that matters."?
Balaam was a prophet until he did the unrighteousness, right?
ReplyDeleteI was talking about people who have already accepted the belief, and disregarded it. Sure, i am going to try to teach them the truth but i am not going to leave the church because they ignored the spirit.
Saying, "all that matters" means that i am got my testimony because i felt the spirit. Not because of what other people have said.
We are all commanded to go out and preach the gospel, because people need to repent and know God. But i am not going to leave my faith because people choose not to listen, or join the church and leave it
I don't know if you could say Balaam was a true prophet... It's weird, when you read the account in Numbers, he doesn't seem to be a bad guy (aside from animal cruelty) But throughout the rest of the Bible, he's referred to as a false prophet and bad guy... I know God spoke to him and that Balaam at least acted like he would only do what God told him to. But other passages lead us to believe otherwise.
ReplyDeleteSo you do care about what others think and believe, good, so do I! But like you, I will not base my beliefs on what others think or believe... Otherwise I'd already be a Mormon ;) I've told you that before, if I really didn't care about faith and religion, I would have joined your church for the sake of how awesome you are! :D But I do care, too much to leave what I believe to be true for something I believe to be false. Same exact thing as you. The only reason I brought up Whitmer was in response to Michelle's claim that people who apostacized should still be trusted for their witness of the Book of Mormon. I was just explaining to her that I do not consider Whitmer's testimony to be valid specifically for the reason I posted. I was in no way implying that just because Whitmer left the Church means you should too. That would be foolish and unacceptable.
We are all commanded to go and preach the gospel, yes. But only "One" Gospel. One or both of our gospels are incorrect. I think we'd both agree that preaching a flase gospel could be one of the worst things a person could do. Therefor it is of utmost importance that we figure our which of us is right... if one of us is right ;) Like I told you before, I don't care about being "right" or being shown to be "wrong" I just want to find out the true right and do it as fast as possible!
You and I as well as anyone else reading these blogs needs to find out for themselves what the "One Truth" is and follow it, they must be fully convince in their own minds.
lylab! Bryan!
I agreeeee! :D haha.
ReplyDeleteThank you troll for a lovely discussion!
ReplyDelete