One Truth?

Hey guys, It's Paul again. Bryan is a bit under the weather, so prayers would be appreciated!

I figured I'd write a short post to try and keep a weekly flow going.

So, One truth: Can two conflicting "World views" both be correct? What do I mean by world-view? Basically, it's what you believe. You may believe in evolution, or that God created everything billions of years ago (Or Thousands of years ago). It could be that people are essentially good, or that they're essentially evil. That salvation lies in Jesus Christ, or that all roads of faith lead to heaven.

I'd like to take a second to plug a website if I could: www.pleaseconvinceme.com They've got articles, videos, and 146 podcasts to date! New podcasts come out weekly, usually on Mondays. Jim Wallace (The Host) was an atheist for the first 35 years of his life, then after taking an investigative look at Christianity (as well as Mormonism) decided that Christianity was the most reasonable world-view one could have. Jim is a cold-case homicide detective and uses much of the same style of investigation in his work at PCM.

Anyways, the reason I even mention them is because I find that Jim brings up almost every issue I have ever even thought of thinking of and more! In this weeks post, a Christian listener emailed him and told him that he was writing a paper on the topic of "Not One Religion has the Truth" He said that a religion can't be true if it points out the problems with every other religion...

Well Jim goes on to say that everyone holds an exclusive world-view, even those who think they're being fair to everyone by saying "All paths lead to heaven" those people are saying that the Christians, Mormons, and everyone who doesn't hold this view are wrong.

Christianity holds that Christ (Not the Mormon Christ) is the only way, Mormonism holds that Christ (Not the same as the Christian Christ) is the only way. So this e-mailer is basically saying he is right and every Mormon/Christian/Hindu/etc are wrong.

I admit, the "All religions are good" approach sounds like a decent thing to believe. However, if you actually take a little time to think about it you'll realize that it's just another exclusive world-view. Same with those who take the "There is no absolute truth" approach. Only that approach is self-defeating in that they just made an absolute statement, an "absolute truth" if you will.

Once you realize that every world-view is exclusive, then you should have an easier time understanding those who hold to exclusive world-view such as Mormons and Christians. It wouldn't be that much more for you yourself to accept your own exclusive nature.

Two conflicting world-views cannot both be correct. They may have a great majority in common, but the parts that differ can't both be correct. They can both be wrong, but not right. Thus is the purpose of Bryan and my going through our respective religions and comparing them. We could very well both be wrong. But we both cannot be right.

In the name of the One True God,
-Paul

Get a Mormon (Or Christian) Today!

Aside from the life transforming introduction of Jesus Christ in my life, I would have to say the second most transforming moment was meeting Bryan. Before meeting Bryan, I had been a "Christian" (believed in God) my whole life, then a "Born-Again Christian" (Born-Again Christian) since the age of 17 (about four to five years prior to meeting Bryan).

Now in that time, I was learning a lot! I was at church as much as I could be, meeting many wonderful men and women of faith and actually took a Bible class in which I received my Associates degree in biblical studies. Even though I had gone through all of this, it didn't seem real to me, nothing was making it personal... I felt like I was reading a book and everything was making sense, but I couldn't see how it affected me in my everyday life...

Enter Bryan. All of a sudden I am introduced to Mormonism in all of it's glory! Now, I have to not just read about what I believe, but I have to "know" what I believe... In such a fashion that I can relate it to others, in this case, to Bryan. When Bryan and I began our discussion it quickly became apparent that even though we use a lot of the same words, our understanding of these words were completely different. Words like salvation, atonement, grace, and even Jesus Christ had different meanings for both of us... So I undertook the task of learning all I could about this religion I knew almost nothing about.

The result has been amazing, even though we haven't completed our goal of finding out which of us are right or wrong (even if we're both wrong) we know we're well on our way. Along the way, we have both gained an incredible personal knowledge of what we believe in as well as a reverent respect for God (Whoever that may be).

Meeting a Mormon has been such an instrumental help in my life that I would like to encourage you to do the same! If you are a Christian, I would challenge you to find a Mormon "PenPal" or something like that, if you don't know where to find one, Bryan would be more than happy to hook you up. Same goes for you Mormons who read our blog, contact me (Paul) and I will find someone who can help you understand the Christian faith.

Not all Mormons are as cool as Bryan, and most Christians are cooler than me, so your journey will not be exactly the same. We will try to match you up with the best people who are as interested in theology as you are. I encourage you to at least give it a try in love and see what God has for you to learn.

Mormons who would like a Christian email person contact Paul @ panos04@gmail.com

Christians who want their very own limited edition Mormon contact Bryan @ bryguy16@gmail.com

Please include your gender, age, and brief religious background in your email, thanks!

-Paul

Bryan's Talk!?

"Hey! Things have been really crazy for my the last few weeks. My bro got home from his mission from Frankfurt Germany! So I never got around to doing my blog post. Soooooooo I am just going to post portions of a talk (I get in front of my ward (the church members in a small area) and basically give a lesson) that i gave a few weeks ago (except this is just a couple paragraphs because it's a blog and that's how we roll).

I met a Christian named Paul about two years ago, and ever since then we've been discussing our different religions. He has read the BOM, and the PoGP, but hasn't gotten his answer from the spirit that they are true. A few times he has said that he wishes miracles would happen in his church. He wonders why miracles don't happen like they did during Jesus' time. It's because their church doesn't have the priesthood.

A few months ago we planned to go to the other persons church. He went to our true church, and I went to his not-so-true church. Unfortunately nothing really happened when he went to our church. But my testimony was strengthened by going to his church. Always talking to him has tried my testimony, but the second I walked into his church I knew it wasn't true. The people there were nice and they were teaching true stuff out of the bible, but it was missing something. Right when I walked in, I just had a feeling that this church didn't have all the principles, and that I am 100% sure that I am in the right church. The priesthood gave me the gift of the Holy Ghost, and by that gift we are able to find the truths around us.

Now I will be talking about a blessing I received before I had a surgery. The end of June last year, I was hearing a weird popping noise in my chest. After two weeks I decided to go to the doctors. After an x-ray, they found out that my lung had collapsed. It is called a spontaneous pneumothorax. Nobody knows exactly why the lung collapses, it just happens.

Anyways, so I had to have a tube in my chest so they could drain the air and liquid that was in there. I only had to stay in the hospital for a day, but it was still one of the worst experiences of my life. Moving at all would cause me so much pain. A week later I went back to the doctors for my checkup. After an x-ray, they found out that my lung had collapsed again. Finding that out was the worst thing I could ever imagine. I could not think of going through what I already had again. Since my lung collapsed, I had to get a more extensive surgery. Instead of one day with mostly sleeping, I would have to be in the hospital for six days. Instead of the pain that the one tube brought me, I would have to have three tubes.

I won't get into any more details, but I will tell you what kept me sane. A few hours before the surgery my brother came to give me a blessing. I don't remember what he said, but I remember the change that took place in me. I felt happy, I knew that I would be fine. All of the depression I was feeling before, vanished. The blessing did not cure me instantly, even though I was hoping for that. But it was the greatest blessing I have received. I still had horrible pain over the 6 days, but I was not depressed. I wasn't exactly happy, but it was pretty close. Miracles don't have to have limbs instantly grow back, or sight to return to be miracles. My lung was still collapsed, and I still had to go through the surgery, but a miracle happened that day. I would will never forget it."

Alrighty! That zit! Mormon's rule! I will be interviewing my newly-returned-brother in the next few days to get another awesome blog post. Now you gotta wait, wear green and you'll be fine!

First Vision, Not Exactly 20/20?

The official version of the First Vision can be found in your “Pearl Of Great Price”

In the interest of brevity (apologies, I was way too wound up for my last post, but we’re trying to keep a Monday weekly post schedule) I will refer you to the link for the full account and summarize it here.

Confused by the multiple “revival” campaigns happening near Joseph, and not knowing which to join, he decided to pray according to James 1:5 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” So he went into the woods to pray to God and God actually shows up! Not just God, but Jesus too! Jesus proceeds to tell Smith not to join any of the churches, that they were all wrong, that their creeds were an abomination.

And there you have the pivotal birth of the LDS church in modern days. In this depiction, Smith seems to be a fairly reasonable fellow. I mean, who wouldn’t be confused with all the churches back then going through their individual revival eras. Each church proclaiming personal damnation for anyone who would join another… Smith knew enough to seek out authority, and in this I applaud him. On what authority did any of these churches speak, why did one have to be a Lutheran or a Baptist, Catholic, or protestant? Why would joining one warrant Hell from all of the others? It was a messy mess, I don’t blame Smith for condemning them all, I might have done the same, but that’s not what he’s claiming has happened. Smith is claiming that Jesus Christ Himself is condemning the other churches. This carries a bit more weight than a man who simply disagrees with the established groups. Now Smith has found the authority he was looking for.

Now if Smith had really experienced what he claimed, how are the regular lay-people supposed to know about it? If I had lived back then, it would have seemed like an addition to the problem rather than a solution. Instead of X churches threatening damnation for not joining them, I now have X+1…

Well the Mormon Church has an answer for my problem: Pray. All a person needs to do is pray according to James 1:5 and Moroni 10:4 and they will receive an answer to their questions. They will receive a testimony of the truthfulness of the Mormon Church and know with a surety that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God and that the Church of Jesus Christ has once again been established upon the Earth, on a foundation of Prophets and Apostles.

The only problem is that I did this. I took the “Moroni Challenge” I read the Book of Mormon and then knelt down and prayed. I prayed that if the BOM was true that I would know it. I prayed that regardless of what I believed that the spirit would come and testify of it. I knelt/laid there for half an hour; my heart and mind open to anything. I was so open, that when I felt hungry, I decided to go get something to eat. (ok so maybe that's not as spiritual as you'd like, but I wasn't about to miss something just because I thought it wasn't "holy" enough.) I drove to McDonalds and as I was pulling up to the window to pay I had a thought: What if this person leans out the window and tells me that the BOM is true and the LDS Church is God’s church? I laughed about the plausible scenario and decided that if that happened, I would be spending a lot of time at McDonalds that night ;).

But it never happened; I went home and called Bryan, told him that I did everything and didn’t receive an answer. He was confused and didn’t understand why I hadn’t received one… I told him that I didn’t see any indication of “when” I was supposed to receive this testimony and he agreed that the time factor wasn’t specified… He also agreed that it was lame that it didn’t happen right away :P

This was in September of '09... to this day I have not received a testimony for the truthfulness of the Mormon Church. On the contrary, as I learn more and more, the less likely I see Mormonism as being possibly true. But I still reserve the right to be wrong and if the Mormon Church is true, my prayer is as has always been, that I would learn it quickly.

Wow, how did a post on the first vision turn into this? :) Maybe it’s the spirit ;) I’ll keep it like this and wrap up with my prior thoughts on First Vision.

According to www.mrm.org there are at least nine different versions of the First Vision. The article raises many good questions for example:

• Which version of the vision is verifiably valid, vacant of vagueness?
• Did Joseph’s own handwritten account show him to be a committed student of the Bible reaching the apostasy conclusion on his own prior to the vision?
• Was there an 1820 revival near Smith in the first place?
• Did the First Vision even happen, or was it a way to establish authority after Mormonism got started?

All of these questions are addressed in the mrm.org article and is well worth the read.

As always, I welcome your comments, questions, and songs.

Respectfully yours,

-PaulO

Baptism!

I don’t know how to start this topic as well as Paul did on the last one. Nothing can be as funny as that joke: “A-pasta-sea”. Do you get it? Get it? It’s funny because it sounds like apostasy. So instead of looking like a complete fool, I am going to go ahead and start.

Baptism: A Christian sacrament signifying spiritual cleansing and rebirth (Da link!)

"Therefore, repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and believe in my gospel, and be baptized in my name; for he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned; and signs shall follow them that believe in my name." (Ether 4:18)

Alrighty. Thanks for reading this week’s post!

Just kidding, I have more!

Most of the scriptures that I have about baptism can be translated in many different ways. In the example of Nicodemus:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:3-5) In this paragraph, Jesus is basically saying that spiritual baptism is more important than water baptism.

"Baptism by the spirit". What does that mean? When you are baptized by the spirit you receive the Holy Spirit. It means that you have received a testimony of Jesus Christ.

Is baptism required for salvation? "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."(Mark 16: 16) The first part makes it sound like that it is required. But the second part only says that you will go to hell if you don't believe. So which is it? Mormons believe that baptism is required for salvation. Some Christians believe that it is necessary, but other Christians (like Paul) don't believe it is needed, but those others (like Paul) usually get baptized to show that they are truly Disciples of Christ.

Let’s all look at the story of the thief on the cross. Jesus said this when he being crucified. Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." Do you think a thief was baptized before he died? I don't think he was. This supports the Christian view that it really isn't needed for salvation.

But if Mormonism is right, and somebody dies before they get baptized, what happens to them? Well like i said before, in Mormonism, baptism is required for salvation. We do whats called Baptism for the Dead. Because they can't get baptized because of their lack of a body, somebody who has a body has to step in for them. We are being a proxy for them so they can have the necessary ordinances for salvation. More on baptisms for the dead in a future post.

So ya. Baptism = "required" for Mormons and some Christians. Baptism = "not required" for the other Christians, but they do it as an I-love-Jesus move. Tata!

“The Great(ly Speculated Apparently Disputed) Apostasy”

What do you get when you dump a whole bunch of noodles into the Red Sea?

“A-Pasta-Sea”!

Ok lame joke, but people have been telling me that they enjoy Bryan's humor more than my dry “fact-filled” approach so I'm trying to compensate. That said, I must admit that trying to be Bryan is a job in and of itself... In trying to adapt his personality, I find myself exhibiting tourette-like symptoms except every outburst has something to do with Banana's or lemonade... But enough about me being him, we've got a very serious-yet-humor-injected post to bring to you tonight: The Great Apostasy!

First off let us term terms, label labels, and define definitions – after which we shall muse together momentarily...

Lds.org definition of apostasy:

When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy. One example is the Great Apostasy, which occurred after the Savior established His Church. After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. Because of this widespread apostasy, the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth. This apostasy lasted until Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 and initiated the restoration of the fullness of the gospel.

That's a pretty outrageous claim! Joseph Smith comes along in the 1800's and tells the world that Christianity died a long time ago, actually about the time the New Testament wraps up. This of course came as a surprise to “Christians” everywhere! Where did Smith get this information? If it was true surely there would be compelling evidence that an investigator could look at to gain a sure knowledge of it's truthfulness.... Or maybe not.

In the Ensign article “Early Signs of the Apostasy” Kent P Jackson seems fairly certain that all one needs to do is read the New Testament to become convinced of the apparent apostate condition of the church by it's conclusion. Jackson refers to 2 Thes 2:3 when he says “Paul taught that the day of Christ's coming would not take place until the 'falling away' and the revelation of the 'man of sin'” He goes on to say that once the apostles died, that the “man of sin” or Satan took Christ's place as “head over the church” Basically re-affirming 1 Ne 13:5-6 5 “And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.”

Jackson goes even further in his article by saying that apostasy is clearly demonstrated in the New Testament simply because the doctrinal and behavioral problems became increasingly difficult to quell. In conjunction with this assessment, Jackson says that by the time 3 John was written, the heresies were so bad that the apostles could no longer prevent an apostasy from taking place.

The thing to realize here is that there isn’t much evidence for either side of this debate. On one hand we have evidence that shows a precedence for apostolic replacements and/or appointments. On the other hand the Bible doesn’t record every single event that happened during the churches beginning, so we can only assume this practice was continued or quelled.

Contrary to what Jackson would have you believe, the New Testament is packed with instances where the Apostles were admonishing the Churches to refrain from false doctrine and false Christs because they knew that the Church was meant to persevere! They weren't preparing for the church to fall into an apostate state, they were doing their best to ensure the proper doctrine be kept and preserved. Instead of seeing leaders preparing for a complete dying off of their faith, you see leaders warning people to not fall away, Paul instructs all believers to run with patience the race that is set before us!

When the LDS church references the “Falling Away” that must occur before Christ's return, it is not something that is foreign to Christianity. The only difference is in Christianity, the “Falling Away” is the Rapture. The Bible is clear that before Christ returns that the Church will be completely removed from the earth; that the Spirit of God will be taken from the Earth as well. Then the Anti-Christ will set himself up as the head of the One world religion for only 7 years, then the Glorious Return of Christ ushers in a millennium where the Devil is bound, then he comes back up to have his butt kicked and Christians get to spend eternity with their God and Savior!

Christians would largely agree with what is said in Bill McKeever's “Mormonism 101”. In his 6th Chapter McKeever writes the following: “If an apostle was killed or died of natural causes, a godly replacement to carry on the goal of his predecessor would have been picked, much like the system set up today in modern Mormonism. However, if the primitive church did not have this system in place, then the LDS Church leaders have no right to claim they represent the same church as that led by Christ and the biblical apostles.” he goes on to say “If, as the current LDS Church practices today, new apostles should be picked to replace outgoing disciples (through retirement or death) it seems strange that God would have allowed the leaders of His church in Palestine to be so ignorant as to stop replacing martyred apostles. Furthermore, Mormons are often told that God will never allow the leaders of the LDS church to guide their church into error. This is a teaching that is hammered home on a continual basis. If this is true of the modern Mormon Church, it must have also been true in the apostolic church. If the early church had a prophet like the modern LDS prophet guiding it, how could it ever fall into a state of apostasy? It would make sense that each successor would also be prohibited from allowing the church to fall into such a state,”

Mormonism holds that their current system is identical to that of the primitive apostolic church. If this were the case, McKeever’s points are to be taken very seriously. Mormons would say that the reason the primitive church fell into Apostasy was not due to a failure on the Churches part, but rather a realization of the will of God.

Personally, and this is just my own opinion, but I believe there is more evidence of an Apostasy in the early days of Mormonism that there is for the primitive church. After Joseph Smith was murdered in 1844, there were multiple people who claimed divine appointment to succeed him as prophet. The RLDS church claims to be the true church as Joseph Smiths own son was the prophet that continued that sect. For more information on that look up "Succession Crisis of 1844".

The Apostasy is a foundational doctrine of the LDS faith and central to it’s entire existence. In the same way, lack of apostasy is central to Christian theology. My recommendations would be to study both sides and see if you can find out for yourself what really happened. Let’s leave this post with a quote from the “History of the Church” - “Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

The Fall, The Winter, And The Other One.

Help! I've fallen and I can't get up! jk I can. But you can help anyways.

The epicness of all that is Christianity and all that is Mormonism clash in a brilliant explosion of direct contrast in one area in particular. We still have no idea what area that is, so we're going to look at the area of the fall of man and the garden stuff. (Which is only slightly less EXPLOSIVE).

Let's get started eh? Eh.

What us Mormon's believe:

Adam and Eve were given two commandments, do not partake of the fruit (Gen 2:16-17), and to multiply and replenish the earth (Gen 1:28). The only commandment that applied to them was not to partake of the fruit. They could have stayed in the garden forever and ever and ever. The other commandment didn't apply to them because they were in a state of innocence, and they could not understand how to procreate.

To carry out Gods plan of happiness, Adam and Eve had to fall from their innocence. Even though they were in a fallen state, the fall was a blessing in disguise.

"Properly understood, it becomes apparent that the fall of Adam is one of the greatest blessings ever given of God to mankind. It is the way and the means whereby the spirit children of the Father go forth from their celestial home to gain mortal and then immortal bodies. And it provides the way for the experiences, tests, and trials that prepare the faithful for eternal life." - Bruce McConkie

By becoming mortals they could now feel joy and unhappiness. All of us could "have a body and come to earth to gain experience in choosing between good and evil" (Preparing for Exaltation).

The whole point of mortal life, is to get a body and to learn how to become like God. The Fall was a part of God's plan, without it we could never be happy. "And it must needs be that the devil should tempt children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet" (Doctrine and Covenants 29:39)

"Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy". (11 Nephi 2:25)

What them Christian's believe:

The state of grace and perfection that Adam and Eve were in, would have been a perfect place to have perfect children, perfectly. The garden of Eden was a perfect place to multiply and replenish the earth with their perfectly perfect children.

According to the Bible, the Fall was nothing but a tragedy because sin had entered the world (Romans 5:14, 1 Cor 15:22) . The Bible teaches that sin is never necessary or a good thing (Except for Ex 16:1 and 17:1). Gods perfect plan didn't necessitate the fall, but because of Santa everybody was in a doomed state.

Genesis 3:16, "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." It says multiply, which sounds like Eve was able to bear children before the Fall.

Now on two points of contrast and that explosive stuff I mentioned earlier...

Where us agree

Both understand it was necessary for God to create a place where sin was available, a choice. Otherwise there would have been no free will... every option would be the right one, and everyone would love God because there was no other choice.

Also, both agree that there were no children born before the partaking of the forbidden fruit, both sides speculate as to how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden, but both understand that no Children could have existed prior to the fall seeing as they wouldn't have been affected by the curses or had the knowledge of good and evil.

Finally, both agree that the forbidden fruit was not an apple, so be not afraid of apples... whole bunches of apples...

Where them differ

Mormons believe that Adam transgressed when he ate the forbidden fruit, but did not sin. "This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin in the strict sense, for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph F. Smith, p. 115) "The fall of man came as a blessing in disguise,... I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin.... It is not always a sin to transgress the law.." (Joseph F. Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, pp. 114)

However Christians disagree based on the Biblical definition of sin: 1 John 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." Based on this as well as Rom 5:14 and 1 Cor 15:22

Mormons believe that Adam and Eve couldn't procreate in their state of innocence, while Christians would argue that procreation would not have harmed that innocence, in the same way as having marital intercourse is not only innocent, but commanded by a Holy God.

Conclusionary Paragraphical Summarizationable

So there you have it. The exposivity is mind numbing. And so are OtterPops. Feel free to ask tons of question and bookmark us and tell all your friends to follow us and pay us money? No pressure either way... :D

-Bryan