Hello! Soo it's finals week. :/ Forgive me for shirking my duty of posting due to stress and studying and more stress. ha However, yesterday I received a letter from the ever so famous Elder Bryan Meyer who sent a post he wrote along with his letter. So today, we will be hearing from Bryan Meyer. Enjoy! (His post was kinda confusing. haha He did it really fast so I'll try to make it make sense.)
Hey everybody! This is Elder Bryan Meyer posting-ing through his good friend Michelle. I have awesome blog ideas, but I have hardly any time to write them. So I'll save them for 2 years. By that time I will forget them. So...
The mission is great. Hard, but great. I love it. I've helped a lot of people. It's grrrrreat!
Hopefully Michelle won't ruin this small post. So if there are any mistakes with anything, blame her. :D (you see what I put up with?? ;) haha jk he's an amazing friend.)
This post is about the atonement. And when it happened. I've been confused why everybody is confused about when it happened. Not confused but... why Mormonism says it took place in the Garden and Christian sects says it took place on the cross.
Garden of Gethsemane:
Matthew 26:39:
39. And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
It says this cup. Referring to having possession.
Luke 22:42-44:
42. Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Likewise, it says this. It also said an angel strengthened him. It also says he was in agony and great drops of blood were falling.
Mark 14:35-36:
35. And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36. And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
It says this cup and this hour.
Now, the cross:
Matthew 27:46:
46. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mark 15:34:
It says the exact same thing as Matthew 27.
John 19:28, 30:
28. After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
30. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Which of these two sounds more like the atonement? In the Garden it talks about his suffering, his feelings, the blood falling from him and an angel strengthening him. The cross just says the few things he said. Nothing about his pain or an angel having to strengthen him. In John 19:28, 30 it is unclear on what he is referring to. The scripture being fulfilled could be the lifting up on the cross and the end of the atonement. Death was a part of the atonement. So the scriptures are fulfilled and his ministry/mission/last step of the atonement is over.
So ya, that's all I have time for. Hopefully this all made sense. May God be with you until I post again. Fare thee well!
-Elder Meyer
This is Michelle. I want to add something I learned yesterday that I thought was just interesting. When you lose a lot of blood you become very very thirsty. He said while on the cross that he was thirsty. When they gave him vinegar I thought they were kind of spiting him. He wanted water, but instead they gave him something nasty. Vinegar and gall. In reality, in those days they used vinegar and gall to deaden pain. They were trying to make it easier on him, but he had to refuse because he had to do it alone which is why the Lord drew his spirit from him in the garden as well. The physical pain Christ went through wasn't the atonement. We all go through physical pain. He had to suffer each persons emotional and physical pain which happened in the Garden and that's what made the atonement what it is. None of us has ever had to deal with that. And we never have to deal with our pains by ourselves because he suffered them for us. We can always go to him. Anyways, that's my little spiel.
(Matthew 27:34: They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.)
Have an amazing week!
~Michelle
Written by Michelle and Bryan.
Michelle+Bryan= Brychelle! :P
I'm very excited to see a post from Bryan :D It's been too long my friend. :)
ReplyDeleteOk, your post is super confusing to me. But I'ma try to leave a response.
You're asking which scene "sounds" more like the atonement? I'd have to say the Cross.
We can't find "when" the atonement happened without knowing "what" the atonement is to begin with can we?
What is the atonement? Using the KJV of the Bible (Mormon friendly ;) ) We find the atonement only one time in the NT: Romans 5:11
"And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."
That word, "atonement" was translated from the word "katallagé" which means "atonement", or "reconciliation"
Atonement: reparation for an offense or injury.
Reconcile: to restore to friendship or harmony.
It is the Christian view that the atonement was the sacrificial death of Christ to make "reparation for the offense or injury" caused by the original sin of Adam. To "restore to friendship or harmony" man and God.
This is why I can't accept the garden as the atonement, and in readin Bryan's post it sounds like even he is saying that Christ's death on the cross was the "last step of the atonement". I would agree that Christ's death on the cross was the last step, indeed the garden can be considered a step as well. Everything from the beginning of creation was one step in front of another leading up to Christ's death on the cross. Not the garden of Gethsemane.
I believe the New Testament is in harmony with this view of what the atonement is, as well as when it occurred/finished.
Supporting scriptures:
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
2Co 5:14, 15 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
Col 2:14, 15 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Heb 9:26-28 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.
I guess we first have to come to an agreement of what is the accepted definition of the word atonement. If we are accepting Paul's definition of this word, which I do, then I can not see how Jesus' prayer in the Garden brings atonement but rather describes the awesome preparation for His work leading up to and on the cross.
ReplyDeleteAlso, my other thought is that the atonement (including reconciliation) didn't stop at what Jesus did on the cross but also in His resurrection. Many were crucified in those days, but only one was sinless & came back to life again. The atonement was made at the Christ but was completed in the resurrection. To me, you can't accept one with out the other.
I don't have time to talk a lot right now. But my question is: Christ paid for all of our sins, yes. He also suffered all of our pains, our trials, etc. Everything. Any mental illness, any sorrow for family we've lost, sorrow for sins we've committed. That's a huge part of what the atonement is. How would being crucified make him feel that. That's what happened in the garden. Him suffering for us. The reason he was crucified was so that he could be resurrected to pave the way and make it possible for us to be resurrected without having to suffer eternal damnation for our sins. The atonement was to pay for our sins so that we wouldn't have to (in the garden) and then be resurrected so we could. (the resurrection) The cross was simply the way he got to resurrection. It wasn't thee atonement. In my opinion at least. And the LDS churches I think.
ReplyDeletei don't think i ever actually stated a question sooo... haha just ignore that part. :P
ReplyDeletejust kidding. i did. sorry i'm a little frazzled... ha
ReplyDelete@Michelle I don't understand why Christ couldn't have paid for all of things on the cross. How exactly did he pay for all of that while in the Garden?
ReplyDeleteBut again I think we need to clarify how the LDS define "atonement":
As used in the scriptures, to atone is to suffer the penalty for sins, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him or her to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ was the only one capable of carrying out the Atonement for all mankind. Because of His Atonement, all people will be resurrected, and those who obey His gospel will receive the gift of eternal life with God. - lds.org
I can honestly say that I agree with that definition 100%!
Question: What is the penalty of sin? Wouldn't this penalty need to have been paid to "atone" humanity?
Yes it did have to be paid. Punishment on earth is death, for some things at least which is one thing Christ suffered through, right? Yes. Glad you agree. :) In heaven though or in God's system he doesn't have death penalties in heaven. You have to suffer through Godly sorrow. Having the spirit taken from you and having to repent is more painful to the soul than death is. It's not our bodies that are suffering through sins it's our spirits. That's why we say he suffered for our sins in the Garden. Death penalty would be suffering crimes. He didn't just suffer for peoples crimes... he suffered for our sins. Yes? :)
ReplyDeleteSorry, I misplaced this discussion! :P
ReplyDeleteDo you agree with the definition I pulled from lds.org? If we're having a discussion on whether the atonement was completed in the garden or at the cross, then I really don't understand your last comment... Jesus wasn't in heaven in either of those events. (Not to mention that there is no "sorrow" in heaven Rev 21:4)
If you agree with the LDS definition of atonement (suffer the penalty of sin), and that the penalty of sin is death (Rom 6:23), between the two events in question, which do you think deserves title of "atonement"?
In the garden, Christ asked that "this cup" (what He knew had to be done (Crucifixion)) might pass... He did suffer, did sweat blood.
On the cross, and leading up to the cross he was tortured. Mutilated beyond appearance as a human being. Hung/nailed to a cross, and bludgeoned. He cried out to God: "Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani" meaning: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" God removed His Spirit from Christ on the cross as Christ took on the sins of the world. It's true that removing God's Spirit probably hurt more than any of the physical pain, but that happened in conjunction with the pain on the cross.
Not to play down the Garden in any way, but hopefully this will allow Bryan to see why it is Christians get "confused" ;)
Gog Bless!
Yes, I would like some clarity as well.
ReplyDeleteIf we are all agreeing that atonement is defined as:
Atonement: reparation for an offense or injury.
Reconcile: to restore to friendship or harmony
I am not seeing how Jesus paid for our sin in the garden. He was anguishing over the hardship He was ABOUT to endure in order to pay for our sins, to the point of sweating blood.
If you believe the atonement was made in the garden, then what work was done on the cross? And in the resurrection?
Paul- Yes I know he wasn't in Heaven in either of the events I talked about. But when we repent for sins it's going by the laws of Heaven. Or God's rules, what he requires of us as repentance. God is in Heaven that's why I was using Heaven is saying that.
ReplyDeleteThere is sorrow in Heaven. There is not sorrow on earth once the earth has attained celestial glory in the millennium. (http://lds.org/scriptures/nt/rev/21?lang=eng) pay attention to verse 1 and whats written under the "chapter 21" heading.
The penalty of sin on earth is death, in heaven it's suffering through first godly sorrow and then repentance. The atonement was done for Heavenly Father's purposes. Not for the earths rulers' purposes. Therefore I still think the Garden was the brunt of the atonement. Although I agree that every part involved (the cross) is still part of the atonement and very important to it.
Wait, are you saying the when Christ suffered for the sins and God removed his spirit from he was on the cross and not in the Garden? Hold it, I need clarification. What do you believe happened in the Garden precisely?
Yes Paul, Gog bless. haha Is that sacrilegious?
Debbie!- Christ had to make it possible for all other people on earth to be resurrected after dying. Up until the atonement nobody was resurrected in Heaven. That's what was done on the cross. Christ had to die and go to Heaven and be resurrected in order to pave the way for us to be able to do the same thing.
I think that we are both so set on our beliefs on this topic that it doesn't do a whole lot to discuss it over and over. hah I mostly say this because I feel like I have been repeating things I've already said previously so we must just understand things to mean different things. ha Obviously there's no harm in discussing it, but I don't know how else to explain my beliefs on the subject than in the ways I already have. :P
Touché on the Revelations verse I stand corrected :) (I'm not so set on my beliefs that I will disagree for the sake of disagreement ;) )
ReplyDeleteI'm not ready to say there 'IS' sorrow in Heaven, but you've effectively dismissed my view that Revelations refutes sorrow in Heaven. :)
"The penalty of sin on earth is death, in heaven it's suffering through first godly sorrow and then repentance." You're adding words like "on earth" and "in heaven" to create two different penalties of sin... I'm not exactly sure where this is coming from, but will be willing to listen to your reasoning for it :D
"The atonement was done for Heavenly Father's purposes. Not for the earths rulers' purposes. Therefore I still think the Garden was the brunt of the atonement." Not really sure what you mean by "Earths Rulers'" please clarify?
What do I believe happened in the Garden? I believe that it was time for the consummation of Christ's ministry on Earth. That to prepare himself for what was about to come he went to the garden to pray. He at this point He had a good idea of what was going to become of Him, He prayed that God would take "this cup" from Him if there was any other way... He realized there was no other way and arose, and went to fulfill His purpose.
Gog is sacrilegious. All the way across the sky.
P.S. Between LDS and Orthodox Christianity, we use a lot of the same words, but we both define things differently... it's not because We're 'set in our ways' it's just that we speak a different language... Thing will inevitably need to be repeated and tripeated.
More here for the language rift ;)
http://amormonandachristian.blogspot.com/2010/08/local-high-school-dropouts-cut-in-half.html
Tripeated is a word?? haha I meant to further talk about sorrow in heaven and forgot. ha Kay so I believe that God can feel sorrow. When his children on earth go astray or during such times as the apostasy or when his servants reject him like Jonah. I'm sure he was sad. There's no anger in heaven, but it's possible to have sadness in things.
ReplyDeleteGood, cuz I do think it is two different penalties. haha Death isn't a penalty in heaven, but it is on earth. We don't repent on earth we pay. They're different requirements for different places. Heaven is not earth and earth is not heaven. They have different rulers and different laws. Christ lives by Heaven's laws. Not the earth's. Sooo... what I'm driving at is that to perform the atonement Christ had to pay for the world's sin... going by Heaven's laws. He's not known to place so much importance on the earth's laws. (Luke 6:2 In that day and age they found things like healing on the sabbath to be against the law, but Christ didn't follow their laws. He followed the good laws of Heaven) The crucifixion was needed and was inevitable, but it wasn't the actually paying of sins for God's purposes.
Earth's rulers=Pilate
That's what I was meaning.
More questions? :)
That sounds reasonable, I'd like something more solid like a Biblical example, but I'm comfortable with that logic, unless of course I find the Bible refutes it at some point :P
ReplyDeleteI'll have to disagree with "no anger in heaven" God burns with righteous indignation towards sin and sinner. His wrath is unmatched.
You make a good case for the two penalties as well :) You're actually very good at making your points :P
However, Death is a penalty "in heaven" since Mormons believe almost all people go to heaven, this is where our religions split definitions.
The penalty of sin is Spiritual death. Different Sins have different physical consequences, some of which merit pre-mature death... Being born after the fall, we all have 'finite' life-spans and will succumb to death at one point or another... No one's getting out of this place alive! ;)
Christ paid for our transgressions by being judged by God and sentenced to Hell. (Which is the second death). I'm not sure I agree with God having different sets of laws for Heaven and Earth... I know on Earth we have many more man-made laws... but God's laws are the same, independent of realm. The penalty of sin is spiritual death. If it were not so, then those who get 'born again' would 'live forever' they of course still die. If Joseph Smith were atoned for his sins then why is he dead now?
Jesus never broke a single one of God's laws. He sometimes broke men's law on purpose just to spite the religiosity of the Pharisees/Sadducees. :P I don't believe that Christ spent any part of this life atoning for breaking the laws of men or Earth. It was all to satisfy God's law.
How do you know the crucifixion wasn't "actually paying for the sins for God's purposes"?