Hi. I’m back! And yes, that's me. Ta-da! I know this is long overdue. To get on with it, I’ve decided to write about abstinence. I’m not actually sure why… It’s not something I’ve been thinking about lately or anything, but I think someone said something about it in church a couple weeks ago and it just seemed like a good thing to write about.
Q: LDS members abstain from everything that isn’t church related and the rest of the world deems “fun”. True or False?
A: You better have said false.
Q: LDS members abstain from everything that isn’t church related and the rest of the world deems “fun” except for Lemonade. True or False?
A: True.
Don’t quote me on that. :P That’s absurd. Of course it’s not true!
I’m going to start with a short story about a boy named Glenn. Chelsea will know who I’m talking about. Haha One night when we were freshman in high school, Chelsea and I were on my computer and I wanted to add a friend from school to my msn messenger. (Yes, this story comes from the days when that was new and huge.) His email address had the word kryptonite in it. So I typed in his email and added him on there only to find the person I added was online so we started talking to him. Chels and I found out soon enough that this was not the right person. We had just added a boy one year older than us who was from Belgium!! He spoke pretty good English though and we actually ended up becoming friends with him. (I later found that my friend I was trying to add spelled kryptonite differently for his email.) I talked to him and he found out I was LDS. He asked me some questions because he’d heard of our church. He asked about polygamy (surprise surprise :P) and about us not drinking alcohol. We talked about not smoking, using any form of drugs, drinking alcohol or coffee, etc. He couldn’t understand it, but after a little while he said, “Wait, so can you just not have anything that your body can become addicted to?” Bingo! I don’t think I’d ever thought of it that way, probably partially because of my age, but it’s the basic reason. As LDS members, we do not use anything that could even remotely bring about the possibility of addiction. Everyone knows that the LDS church has the Book of Mormon besides the bible. We actually have another book of scripture as well called the Doctrine and Covenants which was written by Joseph Smith about the latter day revelations the church was receiving. It’s also a history of the church after it was restored by him. In Section, or Chapter, 89 we have what we call the Word of Wisdom. It’s revelation of what is good and bad for our bodies.
D&C 89:4-9
4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the body , neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
So yeah. Don’t get addicted to things. Besides, usually the things people get addicted to are very harmful for the body. The substances are impure and are not natural. Anyways, that’s one form of abstinence.
Another one … fidelity to your spouse. And clean moral standards. Abstinence from any temptations of sexual behavior. There’s not much to say about this one. It’s not only in the the LDS faith that people have the belief that you “wait until your wedding night”. However, I’ve never heard it stressed more by someone outside of my church. It’s hurtful towards our Heavenly Father to treat his gift to us of our bodies wrongly. They are delicate and are meant to be respected and need to be respected. Choosing to not abstain from this can lead to a lot of heartache, a lot of problems in families and your own personal life and it is not worth the risk.
Since Elder Packer is pretty popular right now I will quote him. Elder Boyd K. Packer said, “Now words can be used as weapons against you. If they throw the word diversity at you, grab hold of it and say, “I am already diverse, and I intend to stay diverse.” If the word is tolerance, grab that one, too, saying, “I expect you to be tolerant of my lifestyle—obedience, integrity, abstinence, repentance.” If the word is choice, tell them you choose good, old-fashioned morality. You choose to be a worthy husband or wife, a worthy parent.”
The end. That’s all. Goodnight. Amen.
I love how you said lemonade. Awesome. You have taught her well Paul
ReplyDeletehaha i learned that from you bud! although i don't think i would've actually written into posts without paul. haha
ReplyDeleteRe-visiting this one, sorry, I've been away for a little while; hope it's not too late....
ReplyDeleteI need clarity of your beliefs on these ones, and I am totally taking the risk of sounding ignorant (lol):
Quote: "And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly" Question: So, no coffee, no tea, no hot chocolate? Why?
Quote: "fidelity to your spouse" Question: How does fidelity within polygamy work?
Haha never too late. Hot drinks... I know it's worded strangely I think. It basically is just recapping on strong drinks more than literal hot drinks. I'm not sure on the history of hot chocolate... haha but I think that in their day hot drinks basically only did include coffee and tea. They just have a lot of caffeine and are considered to not be good for you. Plus the caffeine is addictive and we stay away from anything addicting. The fidelity question... I honestly don't know how to answer that since it's not anything put into practice today. You still stay morally clean outside of marriage. It wasn't like... you're married to one lady and then have a bajillion mistresses :P You are literally married to each of them. And the women understood that and had to accept it because it was a commandment. People didn't pretend to like the commandment. They did it when they were given the revelation to and stopped when they were given direction to stop. I don't know how well I answered. If you want more .... just tell me. :)
ReplyDeletep.s. I love hot chocolate. haha And I'm sure the leaders of the LDS church like it too. We have nothing against it thank goodness. If we did I'd be in trouble. :P
ReplyDelete@Michelle Verse 9 can't be a recap. It says that "And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly." If it was a recap of the strong drinks verse then it wouldn't have said "not for the body" because verse 7 says that strong drinks are for the washing of the body. Right?
ReplyDeleteAlso, do you believe that "Hot Drinks" refer to caffeinated drinks? Or just Coffee and Tea? If it's a caffeine thing then LDS shouldn't have pop or energy drinks either right? What's your stand on Coke/Monsters/Red Bull?
Thanks for re-visiting!
ReplyDeleteStill a bit fuzzy on this belief. As I have admitted before I know just a little about the LDS beliefs.
Hot Drink: Is there another translation for the word "hot" drink then? Otherwise how do you live by what seems like a pretty clear commandment and accept drinking 'hot' chocolate as ok. I know it is a minor point, but how is it acceptable to follow one command and not follow another? I mean there are commands in my Bible that I am not suppose to break, and admittedly at times I do, but then grace & forgiveness comes in to help me while I'm working on my change.
Fidelity: So then am I to understand that it 'was' ok for men to marry several women but women were not permitted to marry several men? And it is ok to break a command if you get revelation to stop following it? If so, what stops one from getting revelation to stop any command that is too difficult for them personally to follow? In a true Christian marriage, the wife is the helpmate to her husband. She is suppose to honor and submit to her husband. On the other hand the husband is suppose to love his wife as Christ loved the church, which is a pretty tall order. (Eph 5:22-26) Both are equally challenging but make for a great teamwork mentality, not just one sided? See my point?
Paul- My stand on coke/monsters/red bull... I'm against it. It's not a commandment to not drink caffeine specifically. That's peoples own decisions although it's often looked down on. I have never had coke, pepsi, mountain dew or anything else I knew had caffeine except for tasting Dr. Pepper a couple of times. The church encourages us not to because it is addicting, but because it hasn't been revealed and commanded people still drink it. In the LDS church you can not be baptized if you drink coffee. The missionaries help you and work with you to stop drinking it first. It's the same with tea. We drink herbal tea that doesn't have caffeine. I can't pretend to know reasons for commandments. My understanding though is how much caffeine is in the drink. In looking up how many milligrams of caffeine are in drinks, coffee has 100-300 milligrams depending on the coffee. Red Bull has 80 and it's the highest. Regular sodas with caffeine have about 25-55 milligrams. Energy drinks and caffeinated soda is looked down and coffee and tea is not to be had in the LDS church.
ReplyDeleteDebbie: In the D&C where the Word of Wisdom is it says "hot drinks". In our present day they have become more specific and it was instated a while ago that we are not to drink coffee and tea. They just got more particular. LDS people drink pero or postum which is similar to coffee but caffeine free. We also drink herbal tea which is similar, but caffeine free. It's not just the heat. If it were we couldn't eat any hot food. Only cold food. Most hot drinks are caffeinated. Some hot chocolate is even caffeinated. Not as much as coffee, but I would stay away from hot chocolate that had caffeine as well.
The people were commanded to practice polygamy and later the Lord commanded them to stop. They didn't break a commandment. It would have then been disobedience to keep practicing it. It wasn't anything personal. The only person who received the commandment by revelation was the prophet. The prophet is the only person who is able to have revelation for the entire church. It was for every person in the church. Not for one person who couldn't handle it so they stopped and then one more who couldn't, etc. Yes, the husband had multiple wives, but they were all helpmates. It wasn't like, he married one women that was his real wife and then married a bunch more and then they went on their way and didn't do anything with the marriage. They were all his wives and honored him and saw him as her husband the same way we did today. It was still a sacred thing to them. It wasn't one sided. Have you read the post on that? It was done by Bryan and is called "Polygamy" in January.
@Michelle This is getting interesting :)
ReplyDeleteYou say you can't pretend to know the reasons for commandments. Yet the reasons are the entire point aren't they? I mean your LDS leadership seemed to think so when "Hot Drinks" weren't as specific as they needed to be... So they got more specific: No Coffee or Tea. That's fine, but then you say that it's ok for LDS to drink Pero or Postum, which is basically caffeine free coffe and tea... Wouldn't you say that by allowing caffeine free coffee and tea that the commandment was specifically against caffeine?
If so then, as you brought up, how much? If Member a drinks 6 cokes a day and member b has one cup of coffee, which one is more temple worthy? Also if member C is a complete glutton, eating every spare moment of the day, and member B eats sparingly, yet enjoys a cup of coffee, which is more temple worthy?
Are you ok with the strictness of the "no tea, no coffee" rule while others are ignored that may be even more destructive to the LDS member?
Michelle, from what I am reading you believe that the Lord commanded the practice of polygamy and then later commanded it to stop? What scripture (s) are you basing this belief on? Or is it only on the revelation of a LDS prophet?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I guess I am having a little trouble with the notion that a prophet can change the Word of God. And that goes for both Christian and LDS. It seems too easy for people to be led astray because a prophet 'changed the doctrine' because he has a revelation. Heb. 13:8 says that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. I find much comfort in knowing that my Lord isn't going to change the 'rules' after I have been working real hard to obey them. There is security in that, for me. Even if a self professing Christian were to 'change' something that I read quite clearly in my Bible, I would high tale it out of that church. (I guess that is just me) 1 John 4:1 gives us permission to 'test' the word of a prophet. Not that I would be disobedient but rather test his words against the Bible. The 'scariest' scripture is Rev 22:18-19 which basically says if anyone that adds to or takes away from the Word of God is in a whole lot of trouble.
I did go back and read the post in January about the subject of polygamy. It seemed to me that most of the comments were written by Paul, I didn't see a whole lot from Brian, however I could have missed something. Truthfully, and this may seem narrow minded, but, I would rather listen to the opinions of a female on this one subject over a male because it seems to me that the male is getting the better deal than the female. Even if I have a whole lot of respect for that male (which I do, Paul - lol)
The 'hot drink' topic is still very interesting to me and I am curious to the responses from Paul's questions. If a LDS is commanded to stay away from anything addicting then it would seem to me that this would vary from person to person, and wouldn't be a law designed for everyone. And who is to determine who it is for? I mean, someone can drink one alcoholic drink and be hooked. Or smoke a cigarette, or drink coffee, or view porn and instantly be addicted, while others can take it or leave it. Me, I don't drink alcohol, smoke, drink coffee, or view porn. I see nothing good that comes from any of it's practices. But I have tried a few of these in the past and it didn't do anything for me. I even tried cocaine as a teenager before becoming a Christian in my 20's and it had no addicting power on me. Now this doesn't mean that I am more 'holy' than anyone else, it just means that my body doesn't crave these substances. I just think some people have more additive personalities and therefore are 'prone' to it than others - see my point? So what about chocolate? It too has caffeine. Or what about video games - they are very addicting. Or tv? Now don't get me wrong, I do believe in temperance, and being mindful of what we allow in our lives that can separate us from God, or hearing from Him - this just seems like a 'rule' made by men, more that a God breathed commandment. Just my reasoning talking out loud...
Thank you for debating this - hope I am not being too challenging.
Hope you had a great Thanksgiving...
Just a couple quick notes on your comment Debbie, then I'll turn it back to Michelle :)
ReplyDeleteRev 22:18-19 is specifically talking about adding or taking away from "This prophecy" which means the Book of Revelations, which God gave to John. Just because it ends the connonical Bible doesn't mean it should be falsely interpreted as closing the entire cannon.
(Also, my comments are just as valid as any womans. Thank you very much ;P)
Yes Paul, the example used in Rev in specific to the book of Revelation, however because there are similar warnings in Deut 4:1-2 & Prov 30:5-6, I believe the same principle can be applied. It just seems we should keep away from adding or taking away from God's Word. I may read a commentary from another dynamic man or woman of God, but I don't receive it necessarily as God's Word - unless it can be backed up in the Bible.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, Paul, your comments are very, very valid to me, you know that, it is just on this one subject I have heard quite a bit from the men and very little from the women on this subject. Not just here on this blog either - in general. It is hard for me to grasp that any woman would be ok with this arrangement. Not that it didn't happen, but that women would see it as from the Lord. Of course there is examples in the Bible of men having more than one wife, and of course concubines, but we don't see examples of this being 'approved by God', but merely factual statements of what was going on in the culture. Any many examples where it led to damaging results. The sexual relationship between a husband and wife from the beginning is and was a sacred physical and spiritual thing, and I don't see how holy it would be for a man to have this type of relationship with more than one woman. Especially when she was not permitted to do the same with another husband. Therefore it does seem one sided. Holy for him, unholy for her? But yes, I do agree with the posts from January, that there is a lot more to LDS than this one subject, it just sparked something in me which led to tying to find truth in the belief that there could be fidelity within polygamy. And I just don't see it and wanted to know how another woman could. Past or present. This is why I seek more of a woman's perspective at this point - not that yours is not valid, because it certainly is.